Talk: Lantean-Wraith war

Why didn't the Ancients move Atlantis to another planet (or even galaxy) when the Wraith sieged it instead of sinking it? If they had done that they could have built up their armada and launched a massive campaign against the Wraith. The Wraith wouldn't have been able to do anything because they wouldn't know where Atlantis was, and if Atlantis was in another galaxy it would have been well beyond their reach. —AscendedAlteran 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Because then the humans wouldn't have been able to find it and they couldn't make the show, you just have to take these things as given although in the future they may come up with a reason maybe in the Atlantis movie. Sman789 20:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

It might also have something to do with the fact that the Ancients seem to possess zero common sense. —AscendedAlteran 20:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

They kinda had to be made to lose by the producers because they're waaaay to powerful to have lost if they had even an ounce of common sense. Like their ships can blow up at least 3 hives in just one drone salvo and if the Ancients had put them into efficient battle groups not even the entire Wraith fleet could destroy even one of them. Also Earth's defenses had enough drones to destroy like 2000+ Goa'uld ships since it takes just 2 to blow up a Ha'tak, so if Atlantis had even more surely it could easily vanquish the entire Wraith fleet if they were sieging it. Sman789 17:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

If the Wraith kept coming, and had thousands of hive-ships like I stated below, then most likely Atlantis' drone supply was shrinking far faster than it could be replenished. If that's the case, then it might actually be realistic that the Wraith could effectively siege Atlantis to the point that they had to sink the city. Although, barring the fact that this is just a show and the city had to be sunken to sustain the plot, its still beyond me why the Ancients didn't fly the city to another location (preferably in another galaxy). —AscendedAlteran 14:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Still. Every few weeks they could launch a couple of drone salvos from the ocean and kill whoever was lurking behind, or fire them through the gate just to p*** off the Wraith since the wraith coulnt get underwater to attack Atlantis. —Unsigned comment by Sman789 (talk • contribs).

True, but does that seem like something the Ancients would do or even think of doing? —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If there are only 60 hive-ships, and Earth has destroyed several, how did the Ancients loose the war? The Ancients had an entire fleet and advanced technology. Earth only has three ships and they destroyed a few even without a ship. I just don't get it. AT ALL!! The cloning facility only cloned people not ships. There must be something missing. Maybe they had a motivation to build more ships to fight the Ancients. They do control the galaxy and there really is no space power to rival them. Maybe that's why. They would rather wait till they loose total control. Now they have almost waited too long to build ships. They have lost a lot of recsources and troops and they can clone another labor force again. Unless they build another cloning facility but even then they cannot power it. The only three known ZPMs left are in Earth's possession. Two of which are in the Milky Way, so that's not enough power at all. —Unsigned comment by 74.132.217.67 (talk • contribs).

All the Wraith had to do was implant some sort of protein into a living thing and wait for it to grow (at least as far as we know given the evidence in "The Seed") to make a hive-ship; the Ancients actually had to construct their ships. And given the ability to clone their species, the Wraith could have implanted a majority of the clones with the protein, so the Wraith could have had thousands of hive-ships at the height of the war. Your also forgetting the fact that the Ancients inflicted massive damage on the Wraith fleet before they were finally "forced" to abandon Atlantis for Earth. —AscendedAlteran 05:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

They should have just used Asurans to construct their ships for them seeing as they could easily write a program to make them subserviant. Maybe even use them instead of crew it would spare a lot of lives. Sman789 17:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Like I said earlier it mostly has to do with the fact that the Ancients have zero common sense. It also seems as if the Ancients had never been in a war before the Wraith, and if they had they completely crushed their enemy due to technological superiority before they could put up a decent fight. As for the Asurans the Ancients were looking for a quick weapon not a long term solution, so they propably never even considered the possibility of using them for other purposes. It also seems like by the time the Asurans were invented the Ancients had stopped using ships to fight the Wraith, instead focusing on just keeping their territory. I honestly have no idea how the Wraith won that war, unless maybe the Ancients didn't want to fight it at all: they seem like the type of civilization to want to broker for a peace treaty up until its too late. —AscendedAlteran 19:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree to all those points. I guess they could grow multiple hive ships. I guess they don't do it know because they don't have enough troops to man them. I think the Ancients could have used the Asurans in many useful ways. Building and crewing ships. The Asurans were actually winning the war until Earth intervened to stop them from killing human worlds. To quote Todd the Ancients didn't have the "stomach" to use them. —Unsigned comment by 74.132.217.67 (talk • contribs).

Your right: the Ancients were too "moral" do what was necessary. Its like I mentioned earlier: it seems like the Ancients didn't even want to fight in the first place, which seems consistent with a highly advanced race like the Ancients. But after ONE HUNDRED YEARS you'd think the Ancients would have gotten it and started fighting back with everything they had. —AscendedAlteran 21:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

They're probably like the Nox. Besides, if the Lanteans had been using Asurans right near the end of the war when they had their best technology they'd be able to beat the Wraith twice as fast as what they were doing when Rodney reprogrammed them and they could only use the old stuff. Also they could program them ethically like make them not attack humans.

Its nothing to do with morals you could easily reprogram them to be as moral as the Ancients were (well, not easily, I'm sure its very complicated, but you know what I mean) Sman789 22:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes but it is possible. Dr. McKay was able to program FRAN like that. —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think one of the reasons the Ancients lost the war had to do with the Ancients having little to no imagination. The fact that the Ancients attempted to destroy the Asurans when they realized that the Asurans would never be the weapon they wanted proved just how unflexible the Ancients were when it came to adapting their technology for uses beyond what they were originally intended for. —AscendedAlteran 22:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Imagination is the one thing the ancients were in no shortage of. Look at what they do, they dont go with the flow and build bigger guns and ships and stuff, they build intergalactic wormhole generators on every inhabitable planet they find. They build flying cities, weapons to build life out of nothing and take it away again in the blink of an eye, study all sorts of creatures, and come up with the strangest but coolest architecture in the whole show.

Well they don't have much creativity with weapons, and thats kinda where it counts. There ships are simply designed to be bigger/stronger/faster than anything else, Janus was clever in creating the Aterro device, but I dont think the Lantean high council would share his enthusiasm for what it does. I dont think that the wraith won with no long term expense to themseleves. for all they know there could have been hundreds or thousands of Hive Ships at one time, but after the Ancients were defeated the surviving ships had the whole galaxy to themselves and went there separate ways eventually becoming very territorial like today--99.141.182.124 22:16, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

I think the Asgard would have won the war if they were fighting the Wraith. They beat the Replicators. They would kick the Wraith's white, green, blue butt and plus we have to remember it's just a show. As much as I like to fantisise about it being real amung other things. If the Ancients had won the war there would not be much of show no matter how pitiful the Wraith are. —Unsigned comment by 74.132.217.67 (talk • contribs).

First of all the Asgard didn't beat the Replicators on their own. Secondly, the Wraith fought the Asgard after they somehow kicked the crap out of the Ancients...and the Asgard lost. Thirdly, your right: it is just a show. But that doesn't mean we can't have fun pointing out all of the plot holes. —AscendedAlteran 05:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes let's all take pleasure in the failure of others. —Unsigned comment by Sman789 (talk • contribs).

Its called schadenfreude. —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ancients beat the Replicators kinda, it was their stuff that beat Anubis (drones), Ori (Ark of Truth and Ascended Powers), Replicators (Replicator disruptor and Dakara weapon), Aschen (Time travel with gate), Aries (Puddle Jumper) —Unsigned comment by Sman789 (talk • contribs).

True, but we're the ones who were able to figure out how to use them for that purpose. I doubt the Ancients would be able to do that. They seem to be rather linear in their thinking. —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well what about the Ida galaxy Asgard not the Lost Tribe? What about the Ori. If they can beat the Ori they would be able to beat everybody. I really don't think they could beat either and I don't think they could beat the Ancients. The Ancients were just stupid. —Unsigned comment by Sman789 (talk • contribs).

We finally agree on something: the Ancients were downright stupid. As for the Wraith beating the Asgard, that was 10,000 years ago and way before the Replicators. Keep in mind that the Asgard are a relatively peaceful race; most of the military technology we're familiar with was developed to fight the Replicators. And the Wraith took the Asgard by surprise: they weren't expecting the war to end so quickly and they certainly weren't expecting the Ancients to lose. As for the Ori, the only way WE beat them was with the help of Merlin (Sangraal), Amelius (Ark of Truth), and the Asgard (the Asgard Legacy). So I seriously doubt the Wraith could have beaten them like they beat the Ancients (overwhelming numbers and the Ancients' own stupidity) and the Asgard (surprise). I also seriously doubt that the Wraith could have beaten the Replicators. —AscendedAlteran 00:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess thats proof of the Ancient's stupidity, they made the Replicators, in fact better ones than the ones that almost killed the Asgard (with Ancient technology saving them,) and instead of upgrading the Asurans to their latest drones and shields they wasted a load of resources to blow them up lol. —Unsigned comment by Sman789 (talk • contribs).

That is pretty funny, and it sounds like something the Ancients would do: "let's blow up a failed project instead of sending that same fleet to attack the Wraith". —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Ancients are lucky they had almost invincible technology and cool superpowers when they came back to the Milky Way, otherwise the Goa'uld would have killed them all :D Sman789 19:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually the funny thing is if you remeber the Ancients didn't take anything with them back to Earth. The only one who took anything was Janus, and that was just his research. —AscendedAlteran 01:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say a comment about the Ancient's stupidity (especially in not taking anything with them to the Milky Way) but it seems like it's impossible to add anything else to what's already been said. It's kind of funny how long this talk page is compared to the article...kind of —Anubis 10545 07:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the Ancients being complete idiots has been well established by now. —AscendedAlteran 07:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well they had the Dakara weapon, teleporter beams, phase cloaks, molecular constructors so anything they needed they could just make instantly (Its likely you could save stuff to be made again or scan something and save it to memory, like a replicator of Star Trek.) Sman789 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

As this begins to move completely off topic, the Federation in Star Trek have fought there share of wars that could have easily won, but they were always bogged with moral issues and didn't want to end up dominating anyone. This sort of ethic and societal outlook is always I have imagined the Ancients acted.--99.141.182.124 22:22, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

seeing as the ancients designed exploding tumor weapons and killer replicators for use against the wraith, i dont think they had that kind of moraller-than-thou attitude —ASDF1239 ^DISCUSSION 22:56, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

I dont think the Ancients were stupid just that they would only do things in a conventional way like the asgard when Carter made thor blow up the oneill to destroy two replicator ships he said he would never have thought of that because it wasnt smart (not exact words obviously)92.19.111.44 08:29, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

ridiculously dogmatic cemented thinking = stupid ASDF1239 ^DISCUSSION 08:31, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, in war if you can't win with one strategy you try as many as you can or you lose--99.135.144.237 18:16, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Theory

After reading most of the coments and from what I know of the show here's my therory:

• The Ancients lost the war for several reasons

1. Inexperience (They never fought a full scale war before)
2. Number (less ancients than wraith + less increase in number compaired to the wraith)

Just my theroryOberoth20 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 23:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

The Wraith must have had thousands of cruisers and hive ships, run by skeleton crews, that's the only way they could've won. Of course the Wraith were also sneaky bastards, a bit like the Tau'ri against the Goa'uld, using sabotage and infiltration. Also, Wraith ships do seem designed to face technologically superior enemies: they don't bother with shields because advanced weapons go right through them, instead Wraith vessels have thick hulls that offer at least some protection against drones, and without shields they have more power available for weapons. Judging by how effective Lantean shields are and how Lantean/Ori weapons rape less advanced ships and the fact that the Lanteans could call in Asgard (and possibly Furling) reinforcements, every battle must have been between a handful of Lantean ships and hundreds of Wraith ships. Then after the Wraith won they decimated their own fleet in a civil war, explaining why they don't have thousands of ships today. Still, the question is how the Wraith were able to develop a spacefaring civilization and build thousands of ships without the Lanteans noticing. Another question is why the ancients didn't use the Athero device since they were the gatebuilders they had the ability to upload a virus to the stargate network to disable them while the Athero device was active (I'm also assuming a Dakara weapon wouldn't have worked against the Wraith because they are too similar to humans)?

195.169.213.92 21:25, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Poor theory. The Lanteans assumed superior technology could trump numbers, so they only sent out three Aurora-class vessels. We saw what two hives did to an Aurora (true, it was damaged) and a BC-304. You get even three or four hives against a fully functional Aurora-class ship, I'd say it's tilted in the Wraith's favor. More than that and it's a forgone conclusion. You'd only need a few hundred hives, maybe. If there were thousands, ever planet would be barren, if the numbers of hives that they estimate (I recall seeing it around 60 or 70) that are active now are starving.
13621 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 04:52, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Casualties

Where in the name of hell did someone get, what, 5,000 hives and 20,000 cruisers, in the casualties list? That seems far-fetched. Even if you cut a zero from both of those, that still seems a little far-fetched. From the novels and information gathered in the show, I'd put the number of hives involved in the war at closer in the 200 to 300 range, and say about 1,000 or so cruisers, with maybe half that in support vessels (supply ships, and anything else that we may have never seen). A galaxy is a huge place, but if there isn't enough food for sixty hives, there's no way it could support something that larger.

Supposing the Asurans based their military directly off the Lanteans (I'm imagining they probably did, because they could've built far more than 40 Aurora-class vessels), that puts us with, what, 40 battleships from Atlantis, maybe more, and against 200+ hives, and definitely more than that in cruisers... just saying. That many hives just seems far-fetched.
13621 ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 04:48, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

According to book: "Around nine hundred years before the war (which was 10 000 years ago) , the Ancients conducted an experiment on a frozen planet ". How is that possible when Wraith race is over 100,000 years old according to Todd.  It was confirmed in episode 5x17.

For you who used that book as source information for this page, do you trust more fan made books than actual Stargate Atlantis TV-series when you make this wikia?? Doesn't make any sense at all use books who anybody can make as source for information when it's in conflict with event of real Stargate series.. When information is conflicted you should always use TV-series infomation first, this should be clear for everybody who edit these articles. No wonder that people are making so many different stargate wikias.

Blomstar ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 20:31, November 24, 2017 (UTC)

Different Stargate wikis? I only know of this one, Gateworld, Omnipedia and Stargate-Solutions. Waht other Stargate wikis are there that use this format?

StargateFanBB ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 20:48, November 24, 2017 (UTC)

StargateFanBB are you kidding? You just named three yourself. It's very uncommon to have so many wikias for one TV-series, usually one good is enough. I can name few more: stargate-wiki, stargate.shoutwiki.com and en.stargatewiki.noip.me. Also follow wikias have also good stargate articles: wiki2.org , www.thefullwiki.org and fanlore.org.

Blomstar ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 14:28, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

I know those ones i named are wikis. I meant wikis using this wiki's style. I'll check out the ones you mentioned. Thanks.

StargateFanBB ^{(talk) (Contribs)} 16:57, November 26, 2017 (UTC)