Talk:Sun Tzu (spaceship)

Owner
when you look at the name, don't you think this ship might belong to the Chinese.—Tau&#39;ri 21300 13:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a really good point, there was no mention of who it belongs to, and that's a fantastic explaination of how it came out of nowhere and finished completion before the General Hammond (Phoenix). It explains a lot. —Ka&#39;lel 16:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, do you mean the Chinese constructed it, or that we gave it to them like we gave the Russians the Korolev? We only gave them that so we could keep the Stargate. It doesn't really seem likely that we would, out of the blue, give the Chinese a ship. I mean, they really haven't participated much with the Stargate Program (where as the we sent out Russian SG Teams). So it seems kind of reckless to give a ship to a people who know almost nothing about the galaxy and have never been out there before.&mdash;Anubis 10545 18:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When Tau'ri 21300 mentioned it, I immediately assumed he meant it was Chinese built, because you're right, I couldn't see us just handing over a 304. And Shen Xiaoyi immediately came to mind as someone who would have had a hand in that. —Ka&#39;lel 22:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

it could also be possible that we gave the chinese the blue prints for a bc-304 so that they can also make some instead of only the US making and controlling em. cuz like right now, we r only representing the U.S basically. the tauri as a whole aren't a major power in 2 galaxies. the United states of america is as the ships belong to us.—SupremeCommander 22:41, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What i think is that while the US have the ability to produce the bc-304s it can't produce solely on it or on a massive scale so they gave the chinese the blue print hoping that the chinese can help built some bc-304s and it's very likely that the US also gave the russian a blue print as will. and since the chinese have a large population and a large work force they were able to make the Sun Tzu faster than the United States.
 * I can picture a sticker slapped on the Sun Tzu's underside... "Made In China" :) &mdash;Anubis 10545 06:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

How could the chinese build this ship if they dont have naquadah or trinium. You cant build a 304 without those materials and those items arent even on Earth.—Tau&#39;ri 21300 09:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, you think that someone would have said that before... that's major. I mean, I guess they could have had it imported from the US... it's just really unlikely.&mdash;Anubis 10545 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * that is one posibility. The U.S. could have imported half of their supply naquadah and trinium and the chinese might hav bin able to build one.—Tau&#39;ri 21300 09:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

It's always possible that the Chinese managed to extort a ship out of the United States (or perhaps the raw materials needed to build one) through events not shown on Stargate Atlantis. 67.142.130.14 20:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think so too, I can remember that somewhere in season 9 of SG-1 ("The ties that bind" if I remember correctly) the Chinese made a move for the stargate, but when the Russians backed the USAF for a 304 they failed. It's possible that the US government gave them a 304 to keep the Chinese in their cage--Scratzin 14:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you're all over analyzing it. It's just a name, the name was chosen for the connection to the military, (the man not the country). I mean do you really think that the Romans built the Apollo? The Greeks built the Daedalus? I can't imagine poor General Hammond sitting there building an entire ship all by himself. But if you want to talk about out sourcing the the ship, don't forget there are allies on other planets who have naquadah and trinium and could built the ship in whole or at least in parts. Tydamann 23:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's just speculation given the naming convention and the fact that it appeared out of nowhere before the General Hammond was completed. Theres a reason none of these theories are on the article page, we're just thinking out loud here. You're right though, it could be just a name. —Ka&#39;lel 00:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Image
I wonder if we ever see the Sun Tzu in the episode, haven't seen the entire episode myself yet, or if it's just mentioned. If we do see it, can somebody dig up an image. —Swedish guy 15:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The battle it is in is skipped in the DVD Screener; there is a chance it may be included in the final release of the episode, but I doubt it. It never appeared on screen. —Ka&#39;lel 16:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Too bad, that space battle would have been awesome. In the Apollo and Battle of the ZPM powered Hive Ship article, This image was the only thing I could find to depict the battle. Although I doubt that would make sense in the infobox on the Sun Tzu article.&mdash;Anubis 10545 19:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Was this the first time the ship was mentioned? I don't recall it being mentioned, but was just wondering. On the article it does say 'Year introduced 2009' and there were only 2 episodes in 2009, but was it mentioned in any previous episodes? If so should there be a first 'mention/acknowledgement' and a 'first appearance'...even though it never actually appeared, but hopefully might be seen in the DVD? Tydamann 23:58, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I mentioned on the Odyssey talk page that the Sun Tzu was introduced and practically destroyed in literally one minute of episode time. The only fact given about the ship itself is that it's called the "Sun Tzu". Because it was never seen, everything else about it (not including the outcome of the battle) is simply assumed, including the fact that it's a 304. This is why there's so much to discuss about it, because all we really know 100%, is its name. —Ka&#39;lel 01:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Class
Would it be wrong to assume that this ship is a 304? Would they make a new class of ships without any mention at all. Could you people please answer soon because I have a bitter little man here who will ban me in a couple of hours if we don't solve this (and i like to do chats instead of threats)—Swedish guy 16:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing is meant to be assumed on this site. If it's not verifiable, then it's no better than creating a wiki based on someone's imagination. If you can't source it to an episode, reference material, or behind the scenes notes, then it should not be on this site or we can never be held as a respectable resource. In addition to this, I only threatened to ban you because you completely reverted all of my edits without any discussion, and I've had problems editing because of you before when was rearranging categories. Threats seem to be the only thing that work to make you stop. 194.75.128.200 16:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okey, I give up you don't get it. The thing is that I could have reverted it if you just would have asked nicely instead to do threats. I don't want this community to be a place of bullying where the admins just ban people whenever they feel like it.—Swedish guy 16:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The discussion is on the one that's making an edit that goes against the general consensus. You should have discussed this first and if the community felt you were right then you can change it.—Swedish guy 16:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, the general consensus of the site is that we represent the facts in the Stargate universe rather than making things up when we don't have information. As all I was doing is removing fan-made information, I see absolutely no need to discuss it. Would you have me keep this information, or this, or this just because a fan thinks it's true? If so, then I'd kindly suggest that perhaps this isn't the site for you. 194.75.129.200 17:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't it true that you are assuming that the Toxic planet is under control by none? The Lost Tribe never said they weren't sharing the planet or that no other species lives on the planet. Just because it's uninhabitable for them doesn't mean it is for everyone. (PS: No, I wouldn't keep that information) (PSS: I don't think that the planet is inhabitated by anyone else just taking it as an example where it's more logical to assume) —Swedish guy 17:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To be quite frank, that information was added by someone I've had to ban repeated times (see any bans with the name Sam or ending in 10) and so I think you can gather my feelings towards it being added as well. 194.75.129.200 17:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah okey, my mistake then. But do you agree that you should suppose some things if it follows logic? (just curious)—Swedish guy 17:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to prefer to put things that follow logic but can't be confirmed in the Behind the scenes sections, stating that some fans or many believe rather than putting it in the main article body and presenting it as fact when it may not be. 194.75.129.200 18:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

My personal stance is that if the speculation is valid, if it has enough weight, it should be included. Though I mentioned above that the only thing we know for certain is that this thing is called the "Sun Tzu", given the nature of the conversation between Rodney and Caldwell (they are discussing the 304s at their disposal), and what we know about the Tau'ri and their fleet, I think it's safe to assume it's a 304, but that's as far as I'd go. There is no basis for any other information, like its armaments, power core, 302 complement, or any involvement of Asgard systems. Anyways, what this is really an argument about, is the personal line everyone draws about what content should be put on the site in a way that this site can be considered truthful, factual and accurate. This is something two people will never agree on, but we should at least bring our lines into the same ballpark. Jaymach, you keep repeating things like "we don't include OOU information on this wiki", or "we don't assume or make things up on this wiki", but this wiki is chalked full of assumptions and OOU information. Look at the Pluto article, or the Luna article. As I can recall, the extent of in-universe information given about Pluto is contained within the quote on that page, and the rest is OOU information. In the Luna article: "It was subject of many exploratory missions of the Tau'ri during the middle part of the 20th Century. These missions, however, were largely abandoned during in the 1970s." Grammatical error aside, we don't know this is true either. As far as we know, there was one manned mission to the moon that Hammond watched, and the missions continue to this day. I don't know that it has ever been refered to as "Luna" in-universe either. But this is all valid assumption and absolutely has a place on this wiki. —Ka&#39;lel 18:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank You! (not just because I agree with you, but because you cared to reply)—Swedish guy 18:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm always up for a good debate. —Ka&#39;lel 18:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I would actually have to disagree with you there. The Stargate universe has been shown time and time again to be different from our own and so, unless said to be the same in some official material, I don't think that the information should be included here. If that meant that all the moon articles said was that "The moon is a moon of Earth." then I'd be perfectly happy. Luckily it doesn't come down to that, as we have more canon information, but I'd be perfectly happy with having a small article with that then linking to the Wikipedia for other information. This site is set up to cover Stargate information and Stargate information alone. If people want to be informed of information that's not related to Stargate, then they should use Wikipedia and we should of course link to it so people can get the information, but it's simply not our place to say that those things also happened in the Stargate 'verse. 194.75.129.200 18:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't read the entire discussion, but it likely is 304-class. As the General Hammod is still being created (confirmed 304) it is highly unlikely that the un Tzu is out of the blue a new class of ship.&mdash;Anubis 10545
 * I agree, it is likely to be a 304...but we have no evidence it is a 304. I'm more than happy to include a Behind the scenes in the article stating that it's likely to be a 304, though not confirmed to be one on the show, but I'm not happy to represent it as fact unless we're shown evidence. 194.75.129.200 18:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I know about all that speculation crap, but I'm still pretty pissed off. REALLY!!.&mdash;Anubis 10545


 * No, I'm EXTREMELY REALLY REALLY REALLY PISSED OFF. In fact, I don't think I'm been more pissed off about anything on a wiki EVER before. I mean, I person has to open their mouth and we change practically 20 articles. It's is highly unlikely for it to be a new class and I know it's only speculation (I've played that card before). But still REALLY PISSED OFF~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!&mdash;Anubis 10545 18:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And it's exactly that type of attitude that makes me regret giving you an admin position so soon. You keep taking things personally and getting mad because things don't go your way. Show me evidence that the Sun Tzu is a 304, heck even show me evidence that it may be a 304, and I'll be happy to include a note in the article itself. Failing to find that, we go with the evidence we have on the show and don't make things up, instead relegating fan ideas to the Behind the scenes as a professional website would do. 194.75.129.200 18:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This is what I meant with the general consensus.—Swedish guy 18:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. I RESPECT THAT. However, I am entitled to ym own opinion. I won't change it to saying it was a 304 BUT WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME HAVING AN OPINION? I have over 6300 edits. The second highest here. I am admins on other wikis. I don't let my personal feelings cloud my judgment. I have done nothing to go against it not being a 304 (have not made an edits to go the other way) but I am entitled to my opinion. Sorry if I offended anyone... really.&mdash;Anubis 10545 18:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait a minute 194.75.129.200, are you Jaymach Ral'Tir?—Swedish guy 19:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I've figured. Although it's weird, he was signed in a Jaymach 15 minutes ago).&mdash;Anubis 10545 19:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

If it is him, he's a real hypocrite. I talked to him before making the BC-303 article. This is what we said: Jaymach:I actually stated the reasons for having differing pages somewhere on this wiki, but here we go; while the Prometheus was the X-303 it only had Earth-based or backwards engineered Goa'uld technology on it, whereas when it was refit as the BC-303 it included Asgard technology. Me:Where do they mention that in the series? Jaymach:They don't mention it exactly like that, however it's called the X-303 for a long time, then it gets the Asgard refit, and called the BC-303 afterwards. As the two things coincide, I figure that the Asgard refit is likely the reason for the name change. (See-Talk:X-303) Doesn't this sound very much like SPECULATION, assuming something without proof. —Swedish guy 19:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting... Hm...&mdash;Anubis 10545 19:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To answer a question first of all, yes, the IP is me when I'm at work. I'm able to use another PC to log in every so often, but largely I edit under an IP address while there. Anyway...yes, that is speculation...that's why I kept it on the talk page and why I didn't create the article. You're free to discuss and speculate as much as you want on talk pages, and I'm even fine with some speculation in the Behind the scenes section (to a degree), but not in the article itself. The very reason I didn't create the BC-303 article myself is because I thought I'd be too biased and didn't want to put my own speculation in there. While we do know that, as the X-303, the Prometheus originally had only Tau'ri and Goa'uld technology until its refit, we also know that the BC-303 has always had Asgard technology as well. While I was fine with suggesting this as a reason for the name change on a talk page, I'd never include it in an article itself because it's not verifiable.
 * In response to Anubis, I'm fine with you having an opinion...what I'm not fine with is you shouting at people on talk pages and stating this wiki will never have things just because you don't agree with it having them. The BC-303 page is one example, and the Prometheus page is another I can think of quickly in relation to the laser weapons. If we're given official documents, then we will go with them rather than placing our own opinion higher than them. &mdash;Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * About the "Never" thing. I mean will will never include that until we get additional information, as you state. It would be stupid if we got more info to not include it. I just use the word "Never" to stress my POV now. And again, I am sorry. I really don't know what I was thinking about that. And about deleting the BC-303 page, it just seemed unnecessary at the time.&mdash;Anubis 10545 20:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I get frustrated too, but I choose my words wisely and respect others' opinions. Because I'm just arriving home I'm going to respond beginning back at Jaymach's "I would actually have to disagree with you there." comment. I actually don't disagree with what you said there, but that's idealistic. That should be what this wiki is, but that's not what it has become, and anyone can see that, and I definitely saw that before my first edits here. And say you were to take the OOU information out of the moon article and direct people to the wiki page on the moon if they want more information... someone (the equivalent of a Deathbunny with extensive knowledge of the moon) would happen by here and begin those OOU edits again. You're fighting the current. Where we disagree is that I see no harm in the bits of OOU information provided if it adds to the quality of the site. I'm heading out again. Cheers. —Ka&#39;lel 21:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This whole conversation is giving me a headache... that or Allergy's :).&mdash;Anubis 10545 21:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * While I know it's not what you were getting at Ka'lel, I'm fine with having information in the Moon article which comes from official sources and corresponds to what we know in real life as well. While I get that there will be people that want to add in even more real world information, I just don't feel like this should be the place for it. There's plenty of respectable wikis out there (Wikipedia, for one) that are set up specifically to host real-world information. I simply feel it's against the very spirit that set up this site, to host any and all information on the Stargate universe and make us a reliable source for information relating to it. Clogging the site up with real-world information, information which may indeed not be true in the Stargate verse just seems...wrong...to me. &mdash;Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 21:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Why did they deem it necessary to include all of that unnecessary info regarding the space program and space exploration on an official Stargate source. Crazy.&mdash;Anubis 10545 21:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just got back again. I have more time to elaborate now, but I'm repeating myself... @Anubis: LOL. good point. @Jaymach: I get what you're saying, and I kind of understand that's the way it should be, but that's not the way it is. I would understand and completely agree with you if the Pluto page started going into the same amount of (SG unrelated) detail as its wikipedia page, but I have no problem with what it says now, regardless of whether or not no official material has confirmed the info, because the OOU information given simply enhances the quote from "Brain Storm". In that same vein, I agreed with Deathbunny when he said that the M249 page looked ridiculous (and the Genii Semi-Automatic machine gun page still does), but he went a little gung-ho with the whole weapons info thing and made a lot of edits regarding OOU info that I do oppose (specifically regarding information like ammo types and manufacturing info). That's where my line lies. I digress. As for the Sun Tzu article, as I mentioned before, the only thing we know 100% is its name, so I've made an edit to the page that hopefully will appease everyone. With any luck it'll make an appearance in the future and put this whole discussion to bed. If I lived anywhere near conventions in which Stargate cast and crew attended, I would absolutely stand up and ask "Are there any plans to see the Sun Tzu in the future? And can you tell us a little more about it? Who's brilliant idea was it to create and destroy a ship off-screen in 60 seconds?" Ok, maybe not the last part. Cheers.—Ka&#39;lel 03:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC) Edit: Seems Deathbunny started removing a lot of the OOU info. Looks good.

yea, it WAS stupid to do that. if anything, they could've just used the apollo and a few ha'taks. i jsut realized something. in one SG-1 episode, a town is acting all wierd so sg-1 goes in and checks it out. i think they were infected by gou'ld. anyways, they were building a ship but sg-1 had to step in be4 it was completed. it was confiscated so its possible that the sun tzu is THAT VESSEL.

Phoenix304's profile made me think of something. its possible the odyessey is in another galaxy, maybe andromeda and thats y it couldn't be called back. i mean comon, it had a zpm onboard so they could have easily called it back for the defense of earth but it wasn't. simply said to be too far away.

i hope the movie clears the odyessey and sun tzu business—SupremeCommander 04:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I really hope it does, Eaither the SG1 one or Project Twilight. As for that unfinished ship, they probably just scrapped it.&mdash;Anubis 10545 04:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, I don't really care if the Sun Tzu is a 304-class ship or not (Despite my affinity for the class). My previous comment was just a rant, not directed at anyone. So...&mdash;Anubis 10545 04:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

ya probably, they have asgard tech now so yeah. and i was always wondering why we don't use the asgard generators to bring out ships to full power?

and the sun tzu wasn't destroyed. it was jsut crippled. after the apollo and the daedalus was fixed up and the hive destroyed, they probably went and fixed it up.—SupremeCommander 04:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

its cool, we all ahve our days. yeah the 304 is a nice class. hope they get a tauri mothership built lol. that would be nice, and i seriously think earth should be let in on the stargate program. we have powerful ships. access to all of the information of 2 of the greatest races known, asgard and ancient. i don't see where we could go wrong.

we would be able to gets tons more done. build like 5 ships in a year... figure out how to create zpms, better ship designs, better everything—SupremeCommander 04:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The Apollo's hyperdrive didn't work (Ellis saying it would take a month or so to get to a planet with a Stargate). So, they probably sent the Daedalus to repair the Apollo and Sun Tzu at the same time. It would suck if it was destroyed... it would be the Korolev all over again.&mdash;Anubis 10545 04:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I realize the Sun Tzu wasn't destroyed, but it's just an easy description of what happened to it. I would call it more than crippled because I considered the Apollo crippled. Semantics. —Ka&#39;lel 04:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have worded it in a similar manner. It probably ended up about the same (if not slightly worse) than the Daedalus after the Battle of the Void in No Man's Land.&mdash;Anubis 10545 04:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)